tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post111788843771249064..comments2024-02-18T18:59:06.164+00:00Comments on Econosophy and other musings: Money = EqualsTobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-10162832644443483842011-08-30T04:34:39.252+00:002011-08-30T04:34:39.252+00:00Thanks for the kind words, and for the tip. I'...Thanks for the kind words, and for the tip. I've seen Mindmap, but never really thought of applying it to my own work. Good idea. <br /><br />I guess with all that surveillance and other unsavoury aspects of our age, we can only focus on what we feel to be good and keep on keepin on. What else is there.<br /><br />And respect your way too. Re-skilling is quite a challenge, but as you say, how hard can it be?Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-53075509113492003192011-08-29T22:02:54.460+00:002011-08-29T22:02:54.460+00:00You triggered a memory with that last comment: htt...You triggered a memory with that last comment: http://attempter.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/internet-doldrums/<br /><br />amazing what you can find <i>directly</i> with google if know something specific :). I remembered that I commented "Deep respect" and that was enough...and I have just re-read your part in that thread. My comment still applies.<br /><br />Stranger still, "autodidact" I didn't know this word existed even though I probably am one to a point. I have not always been a programmer. I started life in the building trade from necessity. My then girlfriend had a baby when I was 17 and we got married when I was 18 (we are still married, 40 years later) so money was what I needed and err.. now! And when young and strong building things is fairly easy. The point being that other than the then secondary school education to age 16, and I was a pretty "difficult" student, I have had no other formal education. Just seeing/observing and doing. "How difficult can it be?" is one of my favourite sayings. <br /><br /><br />So I have been doing this self-taught programming for 25+ years now and I'm still good and capable, but I feel like I'm slowing down. At 58 learning new stuff is OK but it's not as fast :( <br /><br />In addition to that aspect is the overall result of the "computer revolution" - I find I don't like it. Sometimes I even feel guilty that I have contributed to it. I don't like the way that computers are now utilised. For me the <i> validity</i> has gone because of some of the results. Persecution of the populace by computer is one. For example having my number plate and face photographed just so I can park my car (going in and out!). I find it repellent. This is all put forward as "fairness" - no one is to get away with anything. It's not fairness it's simple extraction and we paid ourselves to have these things built and installed through local taxes. "Customer service" phone lines are another, again extraction a few pennies each time. Plus I'm just unhappy about something when I have to talk to a computer, irrational maybe, but hey that's us humans! In our current society some people <i>need</i> to get way with things. They simply do not have the cash to do things properly or sit on phones lines listening to muzak at £x per minute. I would rather people could just drive out without paying if they really need to or simply don't have the £1.10p. for the shortest stay in their pocket. Dammit, just make them free, we already paid to build them!<br /><br />So helping to program something that might help reverse some of these objectionable uses does have an attraction :)<br /><br />For mapping out "fuzzy" concepts have you seen Mindmapping software? It's free and although there is a learning curve it's reasonably easy to use and quite fascinating in it's own right: <br /><br />http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Timbo <br />(There was a lot more of this - but it was too long) maybe I'll rehash it as blog post.)Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-54846872173646544962011-08-29T17:02:30.641+00:002011-08-29T17:02:30.641+00:00This blog is my nowhere-near-good-enough alternati...This blog is my nowhere-near-good-enough alternative to a massive idea I tried to get off the ground with a guy in Boston. It didn't get off the ground, but is still in my head as a project. I conceived a dynamic library-like site presenting the pros and cons of various socioeconomic systems with deepening, interconnected layers of complexity re. the data, so that a path would begin with simple bullet points, which each links to paragraphs, then essays, then white papers or whatever. <br /><br />I am indeed writing a book on all this money stuff that literally begins with the nature of energy and matter and goes pretty much all over history and just about everything else, but will give it away for free, both in print (some hundred copies or so left in doctors waiting rooms and on bus seats etc.) and as PDF. The book will have content that could be turned into a dynamic site that I would like to be able to grow, organically, like Linux does, in excellence and accuracy, in detail and breadth. Long term goal, but still very much in my head, on my to do list.<br /><br />But no independent income. I'm leaping in the dark, with family, for the second time in my life. I'm something of a gypsy and need adventure. I'm confident my various skills, including new skills my wife and I will be acquiring, will generate enough income to keep us in clover. Wish us luck! And keep me informed on your side too. Maybe we can help each other out.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-29531255202471429922011-08-29T16:29:56.938+00:002011-08-29T16:29:56.938+00:00The Genesis Bank question is based on your P < ...The Genesis Bank question is based on your P < P + I <br />I'm a computer programmer in real life. One glance at that equation was enough for me.<br /><br />..."given in your notice"... I trust you have an "independent income" then. Whatever, good luck, you already have a few followers so now you need to write a book and publish it yourself. Easy to do for Kindle and other e-readers and does not need dead trees either :)<br /><br />I have a monumental idea growing in my head based on my money reseach, which I am working on turning into a web site... Most would say it's pure madness but might be worth the experiment. I'll keep you informed...Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-25558840009851333572011-08-29T14:52:20.494+00:002011-08-29T14:52:20.494+00:00That's really interesting, Tim, very similar t...That's really interesting, Tim, very similar to my story, except the bug really bit me and I'm kind of obsessed with this issue. I've even handed in my notice at work in hopes of freeing up more time to research and write around this general topic.<br /><br />In the end we each do what (more or less) feels right to us. So, while it feels more or less right, keep it up! I imagine your thought exercise to expose the ponzi is very effective. In the end, P<P+I, though elegant, doesn't really say all that much without a lot of mumbo jumbo attached, which puts the vast majority off. We need people honing their communication skills, which takes painful trial and error, until there are thousands of effective ways of communicating the basic truths of what's happening around us. Me, I get too lost in the details. It's a curse. ;-)<br /><br />Cheers<br />TobyTobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-51061671012459989832011-08-29T11:52:59.471+00:002011-08-29T11:52:59.471+00:00P.S.
Yes, I read David Graeber's article on NC...P.S.<br />Yes, I read David Graeber's article on NC (where I sometimes comment as "TimOfEngland") but NC seems too concerned with the "mechanics" and arguing about different economic theories and economist's thinking. I don't know all the "great writers and thinkers" that they endlessly discuss so I'm "out of my depth" and because of that they are in danger of disappearing up their own exhaust pipe. They are losing sight of that fact, as I understand it, economists only deal with money/economy in a closed bubble, outside the bubble is the real world that continuously messes up up their neat and tidy theories :) - only my opinion of courseTimbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-15305325903854693222011-08-29T11:31:18.793+00:002011-08-29T11:31:18.793+00:00Hi Toby,
Thanks for the reply. Yes I did mean &quo...Hi Toby,<br />Thanks for the reply. Yes I did mean "Moving Forward". I realise that the film is primarily inspirational and tries to show people that the possibility of an alternate way exists.<br /><br />My interest in this subject is 4 years old, before that I had the average working man's view of banks and money. I have not progressed far as you can see from my pretty naive comment. <br /><br />It was sparked by the banking crisis in the US/UK - at that time I had just paid an enormous tax bill which (due to my own stupidity in risking the tax on a business venture I mainly had to borrow the money to pay), from the same banks that promptly went broke a few weeks later. I was then informed by the government that I and millions of others would be paying for those same banks to survive! Eh? So... You have taken my tax, which I just borrowed from these banks, and given it to them ... So I pay by tax again AND I am now paying to borrow my own money. Eh? <br /><br />This sequence of events caused first simple anger, and then a light bulb to flicker dimly in my brain and it illumined the thought "None of them actually have any 'money' do they? Not the banks, not the governments, not the insurance companies etc. We, the people, certainly did not have the 400-600 billion that was needed... did we? AND If we did would we "give" it to the banks? Why wouldn't we "magic up" 600 Billion to solve a few of our social problems? Which lead to the question: "So where is all the money?" and ultimately "what is money?"<br /><br />I think I have the fundamentals now :) Money is just a human construct initially designed/invented/evolved to permit trade in goods, a simple means of exchange. Also, today, Debt is money - No overall debt - No overall money. Money (as controlled by banks) is in fact a ponzi scheme because it must always grow to pay the interest on the very debt that creates the money that the interest is charged on, masking the fact that none of it really exists. Hence the continuous struggle by nations to increase GDP(a pretty awful indicator but that's another subject) and a target for inflation above zero - I previously always wondered why that was, surely zero would be best! But of course the ponzi money system CAN'T allow zero inflation. So much for the mechanics it really doesn't seem much more complicated. <br /><br />After that initial exercise is understood, and even after three years my mind tends to veer away from such a monumental basic fraud, I asked where does this lead me? <br /><br />Can we continue increasing GDP(or whatever measure) or even should we? That led me to energy, environment, answer a pretty obvious no, or not without huge changes to industrial (production) attitudes.<br /><br />So the questions (lots of them) become what are the alternatives?<br />How do you wean people off money? Or, how do you wean them off of consumerism? How do you convince them that growing potatoes and onions is actually better? Is it better? Is it only me that thinks it might be better because I have gained "some knowledge"? Or I'm just older now? And so on :(<br /><br />I now have an "argument breaker" question that I ask people - my "genesis bank" - first assume there is NO MONEY one bank the first one ever, then invents it, funding itself with a gold nugget the only nugget that exists. Based on the "Value" that the bank assigns to the nugget the bank lends one customer - the first and only one - 100 "New Money" at 10% interest. How does the customer pay the interest? Where does the interest come from? Without admitting it's a ponzi scheme it can't be answered :)<br /><br />Well, that's enough rambling for now - it's just more proof that "what is money" is a difficult question to answer. That we are all doomed to crash and burn at the behest of banks if we don't stop them creating it isn't.Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-66248055125565422522011-08-29T05:09:16.365+00:002011-08-29T05:09:16.365+00:00Hi Tim,
do you mean "Zeitgeist: Moving Forwa...Hi Tim,<br /><br />do you mean "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward"? If so, they would say they are not advocating Utopia, just a different and better way of organizing society. As to "no money", that is an enormous topic which seems to have no end. I've been contemplating and exploring and writing around the connotations and ramifications of that idea for about three to four year, and the material still to study just keeps growing. The first problem is defining money, and I'm still working on that one. How can you do without a thing if you cannot describe exactly the thing you are to do without? David Graeber, for example, describes money (sort of) as "I owe you one." How can we do without that?<br /><br />In terms of what The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project are about, I guess the best way to think of it is organizing production and distribution of (most) goods and services such that the need for money (as we culturally think of it now) falls away. You rearrange the economy so as to not need (formalized) money. That takes time, I reckon generations. It's not about burning all money and suddenly starting from scratch, building a new world. Things can't work like that. Not only is the idea too off beat, there are also 6.8 billion people out there with millions and millions of different ideas about how the world works. <br /><br />My advice: patience and perseverance. If this road attracts you, know right now that it is not an easy one. And if you haven't already, check out Charles Eisenstein's two books "The Ascent of Humanity" and "Sacred Economics". They're very good. <br /><br />Thanks for stopping by!Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-27750243802208499362011-08-28T18:45:20.763+00:002011-08-28T18:45:20.763+00:00After clicking on the Film link 3 hours ago now......After clicking on the Film link 3 hours ago now...! Its a good and informative film, in fact I can't really pull any holes in it at a first viewing except that perhaps it aims too high for people to take the first steps towards what it is promoting. People do not believe in or think that Utopia is achievable. They are probably partly right, but that should not mean that we shouldn't try for it.<br /><br />I think the ending is more relevant for people today - to believe in the possibility of correcting and restarting - but one step at a time. <br /><br />I have just been posting elsewhere discussing the current crises and suggested that "intelligent governments should give the banking system enough rope to hang itself". Then pick up the pieces :) Every one is scared of such a solution though because of the "money" - "What money" I say no matter how much they created, borrowed and lent when they are all allowed go bankrupt the result is same - Zero money in banks, which scares them more. I have been trying to educate my associates concerning money (Since I learned it's current nature by reading blogs and articles like yours and others) most of them now think I'm a bit mad they even call me Prof. Tim now but still don't believe me:(Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-9717386077589744612011-08-25T05:13:31.074+00:002011-08-25T05:13:31.074+00:00Thanks for stopping by, Charlie.
I visit New Econ...Thanks for stopping by, Charlie.<br /><br />I visit New Economic Perspectives often, but feel the authors there don't go deep enough, don't follow their own logic far enough. The way the current system works is purposefully convoluted, and the folks over at NEP are fringe for a reason (though I suspect they are less and less fringe by the day, and that those who benefit most from the current system are ready to co-opt the NEP's prescriptions). I don't visit Bill Mitchell's blog as often as I once did, and previous posts of mine here should make obvious why. I'm suspicious of 'full employment' and job guarantees, and find the "nets to zero" element of MMT dangerously misleading. There is, however, much in MMT I am impressed by, and will dip into its waters again one day.<br /><br />In my opinion we need to build something <i>new</i> at the local level, and thereby slowly shake off the existing system, or at least have a growing and viable alternative well rooted in the soil of a new paradigm before collapse of this system renders that effort impossible. Hence, understanding the nitty gritty of Central Banks and commercial banks as they now are is not my focus. See the post before this one and the comments under it for more on that front. <br /><br />I recommend Charles Eisenstein's books "Sacred Economics" and "The Ascent of Humanity", as well as "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" (free online film) as works that really provoke a different way of seeing the world. It's at that depth of discussion I feel most comfortable. MMT doesn't do it for me at that level.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-86111574178979968872011-08-24T18:23:00.050+00:002011-08-24T18:23:00.050+00:00See: http://goo.gl/H9Nm
and: http://neweconomicpe...See: http://goo.gl/H9Nm<br /><br />and: http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/p/modern-money-primer.html<br /><br />for in interesting perspective on Modern Money Theory and the flaws in explanations of monetary theory given in the orthodox economics textbooks.<br /><br />It might also explain why we're in this mess, and unlikely to find a solution as long as current theory holds sway.Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05734567998498546059noreply@blogger.com