tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post2693799640058037949..comments2024-02-18T18:59:06.164+00:00Comments on Econosophy and other musings: Questions and Observations on Hoermann's ProposalsTobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-72032733067452538102011-07-15T07:27:31.710+00:002011-07-15T07:27:31.710+00:00Great to see you back, Debbie (and thanks for your...Great to see you back, Debbie (and thanks for your generous reaction to my poem), but, being on holiday and yanked this way and that, often willingly, by family plans and trips and swimming pool dips, I have no time to respond fully, here or elsewhere. A full response will have to wait until the second week of August.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-27536554544656849542011-07-10T21:19:21.740+00:002011-07-10T21:19:21.740+00:00One of the great limitations on your analyses, guy...One of the great limitations on your analyses, guys, is forgetting the historical context in which our ideas bathe.<br />No idea ever emerges from a void.<br />It emerges in OPPOSITION to another idea, and as such, exists in continuity AND rupture to what preceded it.<br />Schiz is what our society is.<br />As individuals we reflect the increasingly polarized dualism that is splitting us more and more, divorcing... MIND FROM BODY, for example. <br />Behind the money problem, there is THE NUMBERS PROBLEM, as we are bowing down before them.<br />The money problem is really obscuring the numbers problem at this time.<br />While money is a colossal abstraction, the numbers are even BIGGER ABSTRACTIONS.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-64956721159495917752011-06-29T05:23:54.170+00:002011-06-29T05:23:54.170+00:00I understand that the Venus Project has no chance ...I understand that the Venus Project has no chance of success because Jacque is a stubborn old coot. As is the case with many bright individuals, he is his own worst enemy. In any great endeavor one must hold true to the vision while being flexible in the methods used to achieve it.<br /><br />We are all schizo and hypocrites to some degree. What is important is for people to continue to engage in the presence of friction so that the common understanding can be refined.<br /><br />Your comment about money and bondage gets us close to the heart of the matter. Slavery is a stark example of a stupid behavior which was accepted for millennia. Finally, after much dithering, humanity stood up and said: "No more!". As you say, we either accept such institutions or we don't. Society can run without money just as well as it can without slavery.<br /><br />The P2P Foundation is a good place to learn about many commons projects.<br />http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-23109989053715277762011-06-25T03:54:08.090+00:002011-06-25T03:54:08.090+00:00Of course it's schizophrenic, we have to work ...Of course it's schizophrenic, we have to work out how to walk our way down a path never trodden. There's uncertainty, flirting with this idea, mere seconds later with its opposite. I'm not the kind of person to just accept something without questioning the hell out of it. And, like I said, this blog is a crude and messy smithy for my book, which will be far more cohesive, sing one melody, or perhaps harmonize and interweave different melodies with one theme in mind.<br /><br />That said, your comment is spookily timed. On my way home last night it struck me how money is always and only debt. Soddy's definition of money begins: "The nothing you get...". Money is nothing, but, it is nothing with <i>purchasing power</i>. If a piece of nothing with a number on it has purchasing power, it is debt, regardless of the interest attached. Money is a claim on society, a pressure on it to work, to produce. Money is an act of bondage, no matter how it's created. We either accept debt, or we don't. Ergo, we either have money, or we don't. I don't think there's a middle way. Hoermann might be barking up the wrong tree.<br /><br />Schizoid enough for you?<br /><br />Ah yes, and I started yesterday to take another look at the commons. Weird man.<br /><br />You seem a bit schizo too. Aren't you against The Venus Project?Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-26095196849923931412011-06-25T00:27:24.325+00:002011-06-25T00:27:24.325+00:00Oh, and thanks for the translations and have a gre...Oh, and thanks for the translations and have a great holiday!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-41007487155320066682011-06-25T00:24:02.843+00:002011-06-25T00:24:02.843+00:00Your blog seems a bit schizophrenic to me. On one...Your blog seems a bit schizophrenic to me. On one hand you claim to be interested in a resource-based economy as proposed by the Venus Project, and on the other you want only to 'demote' money. The elimination of money is central to the Venus Project. If that's what you want to explore then you need to examine the ways in which people act without money. No examination of alternate currency schemes will ever build you a bridge to a moneyless society.<br /><br />There is no need for the obsessive focus on fairness in individual exchanges of the market system. Free-market logic says that if all individual transactions are accepted as fair, then the system must be fair. This leads to problems because the transactions are in fact never fair, as price does not (and cannot) reflect wholistic value. Let the current monetary system handle the current expectations of people. Work instead on developing the commons and promoting the logic of the commons, which measures fairness in outcomes, not the minutia of transient exchanges.<br /><br />The scientific method does not work on trust, it works on data. Everyone must have access to the data. You must demand it. A democratic society cannot be built around an economy of proprietary production.<br /><br />Beat the drum. Walk the path. Step by step we will move forward.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com