tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post3794938076218123003..comments2024-02-18T18:59:06.164+00:00Comments on Econosophy and other musings: Postcard from EverywhereTobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-86972493093194900462011-08-14T11:49:28.216+00:002011-08-14T11:49:28.216+00:00"ON YOUR BLOG."
That brought a smile ;..."ON YOUR BLOG." <br /><br />That brought a smile ;-)<br /><br />And very interesting about becoming submerged in what we reject. I went through my own mini midlifer about 4 years ago too, new I was dipping in there and bringing it on, but couldn't control (hate that word more and more) the fallout at all.<br /><br />"Is it possible to recognize DIFFERENCE without making subtle value judgments as to whether our differences are good/bad, better or worse ?"<br /><br />Excellent question. My answer is the beautiful German word jein (ja und nein mixed). I think we can be effective in being humble about our unavoidable value judgements because we are coming to realize how dangerous they can be. Allow diversity to flourish, that sort of thing.<br /><br />If we're lucky, life stays interesting, and we get to stay creative in how we respond for a very long time.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-83918283516289659292011-08-14T11:34:46.430+00:002011-08-14T11:34:46.430+00:00I nitpick over your choice of the word "revul...I nitpick over your choice of the word "revulsion", Toby.<br />Funnily enough, Freud noticed that psychological/psychic conflict was a direct result of attempting to REJECT parts of ourselves that we find distasteful.<br />I avoid the crowds, Toby.<br />But consider this...<br />I think that I have told you already about the pages in "Mein Kampf" where Adolf Hitler talks about his attempt to reject his burgeoning antisemitism. His fight to triumph over this IRRATIONAL descent into the heart of darkness.<br />In one of my favorite psy books, Octave Mannoni says that reason is the last, most fragile attempt to distance oneself from being submerged by what one has rejected, for example.<br />He says that it OFTEN does not work.<br />I subscribe totally to that point.<br />For example, four years ago when I broke down, I KNEW why I was breaking down. That didn't stop me from breaking down...<br />I think that, as animals, we are tremendously influenceable, and that at this time, our hubristic volontarism, and positivism are keeping us from understanding just how easy it is to lose the North, as we say in French. <br />This discussion ties into your above post. Is it possible to recognize DIFFERENCE without making subtle value judgments as to whether our differences are good/bad, better or worse ?<br />I don't know. <br />Yes, we are a lot alike. I enjoy engaging with you ON YOUR BLOG.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-10371062711781401322011-08-14T05:08:10.923+00:002011-08-14T05:08:10.923+00:00I'm not perfect.
But aren't you contradic...I'm not perfect.<br /><br />But aren't you contradicting yourself? Here you say:<br /><br />"to return to a traditional society, one where "the individual" has disappeared."<br /><br />and yet want no part of the mass. Is it really so whacky for me to detect revulsion there? I share that revulsion by the way, which is part of the point I was making over at Volatility. Then comes the crippling self-consciousness you hint at, the self-policing. I think it is both good and bad, though all things are that anyway. I've written a number of poems on this theme, aimed at my own revulsion and my shame in feeling it. You complimented my latest effort. The landscape that piece portrays is as inner as outer, and the muck ignored is the mass the patrician ego is reviled by, seeks to escape to rise above. Is this not in you too? Aren't we alike on that, you and I, idiosyncratic loners? Isn't the Western culture all about that? Flight from horrible uncertainty into 'civilized' order?Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-27692121638316281952011-08-13T12:25:57.024+00:002011-08-13T12:25:57.024+00:00Gotta be careful over there at Russ's place, T...Gotta be careful over there at Russ's place, Toby. I seem to remember that a while ago you THOUGHT I said something that I DIDN'T over there...Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-73841201359452034382011-08-13T09:32:34.047+00:002011-08-13T09:32:34.047+00:00The concept of "the individual" exists i...The concept of "the individual" exists in opposition to the concept of "the masses".<br />I am not making any JUDGMENT on "the masses".<br />Indeed, the judgment that is made is one instinctively made by "the individual" because he does not want to SEE the school of fish when he is IN it. He desperately wants to FEEL UNIQUE, in the midst of so many who look, act, like him. (Of course, technically he IS unique, but the circumstances that would allow him to experience his uniqueness are not present very often.)<br />At this time, I feel that the major problem in our "democratic" societies is the publicity edifice.<br />It has absorbed our political institutions.<br />Publicity basically is made to APPEAL TO THE MASSES, Toby.<br />I saw "Hamlet" two days ago. Fascinating that Shakespeare is already exploring the problems of too much SELF CONSCIOUSNESS.<br />The impass that it leads to.<br />It is funny that you automatically assume that I feel revulsion for the "masses", Toby.<br />I do NOT feel revulsion for "the masses".<br />I sometimes wonder what I would do if I were caught in a crowd shouting "Heil.... whatever", how I would react, what I would do.<br />I am not sure. That is why I tend to try to avoid ALL crowds at this time, other than the fact that I feel swallowed up in them, and dislike this.<br />I must confess, Toby, that after all this time chatting over the Internet, I am a little DISAPPOINTED that you seem to quickly attribute NASTY ideas to me that I do not believe.<br />For the looters... I do feel that "mass" behavior was present there.<br />That is why crowding lots of unemployed, disenchanted people of any age, but particularly young men in the cities is a recipe for social unrest. WE need to be offering some kind of PLACE for those young people where they can feel that their TALENTS or APTITUDES are valued, or where they can find OLDER MEN to identify with, and learn from.<br />It is a question (among other questions) of male VIRILITY and how to channel it, and make it work FOR society, instead of against it.<br />We are not very good at even accepting it these days, in my opinion.<br />My word verification word.. "curse". LOL.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-30233791736164244932011-08-13T07:33:10.261+00:002011-08-13T07:33:10.261+00:00You invite flak. My impression is that you need it...You invite flak. My impression is that you need it. I hate it, avoid it where I can, and try to build bridges. The last thing I want is a Hobbesian Warre.<br /><br />"Basically, I think that probably the only way for humanity to survive is to return to a traditional society, one where "the individual" has disappeared."<br /><br />This cannot happen, since we have 'invented' the individual. The word and idea are in our cultural lexicon. While I believe plenty of simplification ought to take place, or will be violently forced upon us, the New Way will give birth to the embedded individual, what I'm beginning to call the inter-individual.<br /><br />As to The Age Of Separation you hint at, and the Age of Reunion Eisenstein talks of, all I can say is please, please, please read The Ascent of Humanity. Your outlook is begging to do so, even if your ego seems to want to resist. Hell, send me your address and I'll buy you a copy for your latest Leo birthday (or is it still to come this year?). Deal?<br /><br />Maybe watch the first episode of "The Century of the Self" which talks quite a bit about the elite's distaste for the mass you refer to. Be careful with that revulsion, Debbie. It has a horrible history behind it.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-16375474938583295112011-08-11T13:48:02.754+00:002011-08-11T13:48:02.754+00:00Hi Debbie,
sorry, but I am jetlagged at the time ...Hi Debbie,<br /><br />sorry, but I am jetlagged at the time of day I can post comments on my blog. The firewall at work has been changed and won't let me through on blogger to comment. Now that I'm home and can get through, I'm too shagged to respond intelligently. The weekend will see a more awake Toby.<br /><br />Until then...Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-45932186604630239062011-08-10T21:37:46.290+00:002011-08-10T21:37:46.290+00:00Hi Toby,
I have got a lot of flak over there at Ru...Hi Toby,<br />I have got a lot of flak over there at Russ's place for my ideas about the individual vs the masses.<br />Basically, I think that probably the only way for humanity to survive is to return to a traditional society, one where "the individual" has disappeared.<br />Western civilization has brought tremendous evil to the planet, unfortunately, with time, and continues to do so. <br />I say this with great... CONSCIOUSNESS of how much I too, am a product of this civilization, and perpetuate this form of consciousness which is so... DIVISIVE.<br />Today at the laundromat, I checked out a book by Naipaul, and will try to read him, along with maybe, Borges, who also treats the theme of tradition vs historicity and consciousness.<br />Maybe I will open up "Heart of Darkness" again this summer. I haven't read it in a while. <br />I am not thrilled that Western consciousness is busy engulfing the planet at this time, with the consequence that any other vision of consciousness seems to be rapidly disappearing.<br />The beginning of THE END ?<br />Sorry to sound so gloomy. Perhaps I will try to read Kierkegaard too. I have dabbled in Nietzsche this summer, and find him interesting.<br />Forwards to England next week.<br />I cross my fingers that I will not run into any looters. That MASS mentality really does not thrill me..Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.com