tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post7304596459799659921..comments2024-02-18T18:59:06.164+00:00Comments on Econosophy and other musings: Multiplication of the... (debt, loaves, fishes, words, coins, you fill in...)Tobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-26259065494302731702010-05-26T17:34:22.840+00:002010-05-26T17:34:22.840+00:00As Thai would say... those advantages have disadva...As Thai would say... those advantages have disadvantages.<br />Does contemporary art represent "progress" compared to Renaissance art, or even Paleolithic cave painting ?<br />Some people think that our health care is much better than the non care that our ancestors got.<br />But... honestly, Toby, I started thinking about the Great Plague episode that scarred our ancestors...<br />Do you really think that if we had an infectious disease episode on the scale of the Great Plague RIGHT NOW that we would do any better than our ancestors did ?<br />Honestly, now... <br />I'm not sure. Not as sure as I used to be that our "progress" is REALLY progress. <br />And we have LOST a lot of knowledge through our arrogant prejudices. Knowledge about nature gleaned from empiric observation, for example.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-60071094862703649922010-05-26T15:23:41.204+00:002010-05-26T15:23:41.204+00:00I didn't say that pure science was not a belie...I didn't say that pure science was not a belief system, only that it is not an organized religion. <br /><br />As to conservatism I have no problem with it, ditto liberalism; I always try to see the positives in all things, including organized religion and pure science. I recognize too the importance of faith.<br /><br />But there is progress from some perspectives, like in health, literacy, longevity, art, just as there is also decay and rot as systems run out of juice. And words like 'better' or 'worse' are human judgements, as I said. When I see improvements over the course of humanity's time on earth, I mean from a human perspective. The ecosystem doesn't really care about us, one way or the other. However, Universe has, at least on this planet, found self-awareness through us. We are a part of Universe as much as plankton, or forests, or stars. <br /><br />Anyway, this is an old discussion. And I most certainly don't think you are a fundamentalist at all.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-29613348513600846622010-05-26T12:54:39.549+00:002010-05-26T12:54:39.549+00:00Toby, I do NOT share your optimism about the speci...Toby, I do NOT share your optimism about the species going anywhere BETTER.<br />For the simple reason that every generation has to learn ITSELF what it means to be... a man, a woman, a worker, a Christian, a Republican, all those labels that I avoid.<br />So that the crux of the matter for the species is transmission. HOW to transmit, WHAT to transmit.<br />Pure science is a belief system, too, Toby..<br />Everywhere we go, we cannot escape belief.<br />Perhaps the GREATEST illusion is that of having NO illusion.<br />My daddy, way back when, diagnosed melancolic episodes in the people who took themselves out, with their children, as a form of... delusional thinking. Craziness, for the layman.<br />As I mentioned over there on naked capitalism, scientific materialism is itself organized around an elaborate belief system. So... no escaping belief there either, is there ?<br />Baudelaire had a verse... "Anywhere out of this world".<br />THAT is where you will find a place without belief.<br />Now... faith is a different story entirely. Belief and faith are NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL...<br />You are right. I am a Conservative. But you will grant me that I do NOT sound like the majority of religious fundamentalists who are so decried in liberal circles, in great shows of irrational prejudice. <br />From MY viewpoint, it is rather pointless to drop shit on your tradition when you know NOTHING about it.<br />Now... when you KNOW something about where you come from, you are in a better position to make... FREER, and more informed choices.<br />I don't BELIEVE in "new" FOR "new". Or progress, either, really.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-66803391056530864822010-05-26T10:41:18.598+00:002010-05-26T10:41:18.598+00:00“organized religion is dead” – there is almost onl...“organized religion is dead” – there is almost only organized religion. Capitalism is, socialism is, religions (of course) are. Anything that unites a people under some common organizing set of principles is based on faith somewhere deep down. Only pure science which does not attempt to organise society can escape being defined in this way, depsite its universal reach and effectiveness. <br /><br />Otherwise I find little to comment on here, except perhaps for your ambivalent attitude to change, Debra. You once described yourself as an anarchist, and you have also said you are a Rousseauian, but to my ears you seem conservative with a small “c” in your musings. Catholacism was once new and radical, as was Christianity, as was monotheism, as were homo sapiens, as were animals, and so on backwards. As humans learn ‘better’ how to apprehend and define the reality they are embedded in, so organized religions change their form and functioning to reflect these new perspectives. The process of change is painful and messy, and though some might have utopian dreams, all there really is is the solving of perceived problems which itself creates new problems to be solved. However, I truly believe there is improvement too. Yes we forget ourselves, and yes we follow unwise paths, but there is improvement. That said, such a judgement can only be subjective. From a deep ecological, non-humanist point of view ‘improvement’ has no particular meaning. But then, neither does ‘judgement.’ Since we are humans though, I’ll stick with my assessment.<br /><br />(Great comments on Naked Capitalism by the way…)Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.com