tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post9077302791220931492..comments2024-02-18T18:59:06.164+00:00Comments on Econosophy and other musings: Perfection: A Very Human CurseTobyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-51529638710948518352012-03-02T09:02:39.159+00:002012-03-02T09:02:39.159+00:00"What you are calling "perfection" ...<i>"What you are calling "perfection" is really "conformity with expectations.""</i><br /><br />Except that they are intimately related. :-)Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-76300305363778943252012-03-01T06:57:22.668+00:002012-03-01T06:57:22.668+00:00I'd guess that people become more prone to the...<i> I'd guess that people become more prone to the allure of perfection the less they have to worry about where the next meal is coming from, and the more opportunity they have to be creative in some way.</i><br /><br />I was going to agree, but I cannot. The true urge to "perfection" transcends economic circumstances and explains why people like me (and Milton Friedman, whose actions I despise) can pursue it as a means for escaping such circumstances. The reason why I don't have to worry about where the next meal is coming from is because I have worked to understand the true nature of the world in a way that my CEO prizes (as did my last two CEOs). <br /><br /><i>I suspect we are in close agreement, Tao. Where we might differ is in my suspicion that all humans might slip into an obsession with perfection, circumstances permitting, but those circumstances would have to apply pretty much from birth on.</i><br /><br />I agree. Your cat meow story is an example of what I've called for years the "my worldview" problem. When I first met my wife, she was appalled that I did not wash my dishes as soon as I was done with them. I told her that because I have many more dishes, it simply is not in my worldview to wash them as I go. Instead, I wash them when I run out of dishes. I told her then, and this compact holds to this day, over twenty years later, that I will do dishes any time she asks, but that it simply is not in my worldview to do dishes of my own accord unless and until we run out.<br /><br />Anything that crashes into my expectations for the day is unpleasant. An unexpected meow at the wrong time crashes into expectations and upsets the certainty that comforts us. I see no real disagreement. What you are calling "perfection" is really "conformity with expectations."Tao Jonesinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10041034009270339963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-39993357752249357662012-02-24T11:35:47.408+00:002012-02-24T11:35:47.408+00:00Hi Tim,
thanks for the compliment. Even though I ...Hi Tim,<br /><br />thanks for the compliment. Even though I don't want to be, I am flattered by them!<br /><br />Yup, certainty and security versus the pressure to be creative and adaptive because of problems, challenges and upsets. It's a difficulty generally, and should be too. No one really wants everything to be completely certain and predictable with no further chance of change, but nor does anyone want total chaos. We muddle through.<br /><br />At times like this (although I suspect what humanity is going through is unprecedented in terms of scale and depth of change) the age-old struggle between 'comfort' and change, the dissonance therefrom, will get very rough indeed; we ain't seen nothing yet. The best we can all do is be as farsighted and grown up about it as possible, which won't be at all easy. <br /><br />In my humble opinion.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-86692135827071677132012-02-23T20:32:40.364+00:002012-02-23T20:32:40.364+00:00"But when we create, we necessarily interact ..."But when we create, we necessarily interact with the infinite, and thus, by introducing something new into its totality, relinquish the control we think we have during the creative process."<br /><br />I meant to post this earlier - That is a great sentence! Explains everything :) Why my plans fail - when they looked "perfect". Why certainty can't be achieved. <br /><br />Retirement security - the lack of it's certainty (when TPTB manipulate the economy) is, possibly, given your reasoning, why people get so upset about it being affected. <br /><br />Which returns us to interacting with the infinite possibilities of the future, which we alter when we create a retirement "plan".<br /><br />Not a subtly comment - but it might make sense :)Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-81344838798859944242012-02-23T17:39:09.046+00:002012-02-23T17:39:09.046+00:00Those are good points, especially the idea of perf...Those are good points, especially the idea of perfection being certainty squared. And yet I still think we are talking past each other a little.<br /><br />My example of being annoyed by the meow of my loud cat is hardly what one would characterise as an obsession with perfection; my point is that this irritation belongs in the same ball park, or on the same scale. Certainty is in there too, as you suggest. I'd guess that people become more prone to the allure of perfection the less they have to worry about where the next meal is coming from, and the more opportunity they have to be creative in some way. Because this does not occur to many people, your description of what I've called humanity's curse as being rare is accurate. But again, and even though I called perfection a very human curse, I did not mean by that, it applies to all humans equally, but that other animals cannot develop the urge. <br /><br />I suspect we are in close agreement, Tao. Where we might differ is in my suspicion that all humans <i>might</i> slip into an obsession with perfection, circumstances permitting, but those circumstances would have to apply pretty much from birth on. Though your example shows it is an affliction we can overcome. Besides, handled creatively, perfection's not a curse at all, which was the more general point I was trying to make.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-86010025315054158772012-02-23T05:13:35.081+00:002012-02-23T05:13:35.081+00:00In this post I was characterising perfection as th...<i>In this post I was characterising perfection as the carrot pulling us forward, generally, though certainly not exclusively. </i><br /><br />I think I may have confused you with my second paragraph. Sorry. I think I was actually talking about exactly the same thing in my first paragraph.<br /><br />For the vast sea of humanity, perfection is neither a carrot nor a stick. They are simply not aware of or interested in perfection. They just want to be happy, and happiness arises first and foremost from certainty, which for most people is far less than perfection. Being absolved of our imperfections on a weekly basis is a more than sufficient carrot for 99%+ of the people.<br /><br />Perfection can be understood as merely a pathological case of certainty, i.e., the certainty that this is the single best way. And those who seek perfection (i.e., Utopia) truly are a danger to themselves and others. But the systems invented by Utopian rationalists always get co-opted by brutal realists who seek to dominate and control others, rendering the pursuit of perfection itself an illusion, as we get "saved" time and again by the very people that the Utopians seek to save us from. The pursuit of perfection will always lead us into the maw of the beast who awaits us there.Tao Jonesinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10041034009270339963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-55959143615101101762012-02-22T08:34:34.311+00:002012-02-22T08:34:34.311+00:00Hi Tao,
yes, all you say is true, but I was not r...Hi Tao,<br /><br />yes, all you say is true, but I was not really talking about perfectionism. My bad for not drawing that distinction, so thanks to you for doing so. When blogging works well, this sort of thing happens.<br /><br />In this post I was characterising perfection as the carrot pulling us forward, generally, though certainly not exclusively. There are other drives, other forces, other urges. The urge towards perfection can produce horrors and wonders, but we have a better chance of a healthier relationship with the urge towards perfection the more aware we are of it, in both its 'negative' and 'positive' aspects. And of course this is as old as the hills, this sort of pop wisdom, but I think it's an feature of the process worth repeating now, as the old paradigm collapses, and hope for the famous Better Way offers escape from suffering.Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-39749181357849659692012-02-22T06:32:08.632+00:002012-02-22T06:32:08.632+00:00The pursuit of perfection is not a human imperativ...The pursuit of perfection is not a human imperative, but the pursuit of certainty is. This explains why the absolution of imperfection (sin) is a suitable substitute for the Christian, for example. Christians do not seek the perfection of the Divine so much as they seek the certainty that being Human is "good enough." <br /><br />Perfectionists are a relatively rare, and self-selecting, breed. I stopped being a perfectionist once I realized being one meant being a masochist.Tao Jonesinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10041034009270339963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-35739128985267337252012-02-20T07:19:07.694+00:002012-02-20T07:19:07.694+00:00Ember meowed us awake this morning. It's a ver...Ember meowed us awake this morning. It's a very mild late February, mild enough to convince the birds spring has arrived, so they are active, and Ember is a-hunting. He wanted out, and howled the house awake. I will take your advice and foghorn him from deep slumber next opportunity I get.<br /><br />My Uranian urge is strong, too strong for me to ignore. And that's one of the reasons I wrote this confessional. If you can't beat it, expose it, and then laugh about it. No one's perfect. Enjoy your shit!Tobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16258136994278139356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7378568575885387942.post-10285163456994981632012-02-19T21:17:52.691+00:002012-02-19T21:17:52.691+00:00Nice post, Toby.
I am pretty far away from Uranos ...Nice post, Toby.<br />I am pretty far away from Uranos right now...<br />Thinking about it, I set things in motion a while ago upon getting outraged about flushing my shit away in drinking quality water.<br />Somehow, the turning point became conscious when this act became obscene to me.<br />My... refusal to flush my shit away in drinking quality water somewhat amuses the family (I have converted my husband...), but many people really feel that I am a loony, and strangely enough, I am now at a new turning point where being seen as a loony no longer bothers me.<br />I will run in the opposite direction from clean, sparkling, bustling cities, by the way.<br />Greet your cat with a foghorn meow from me.<br />Cheers.Debrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01510189619803992336noreply@blogger.com